Stumbler has a tendency to latch onto anything any Israeli does or says and interpret it as proof that Israel is against peace. That bit from Netanyahu's speech is a good example. Even though the video is 9 years old and Netanyahu did not hold political office at that time, he still sees what Netanyahu said as Israel's official position. Additionally, he ignores that Netanyahu was speaking to a group of Israeli settlers who lost family members to Palestinian attacks during the early stages of the second intifada, an actual act of violence which stumbler totally ignored.

So, get this, Netanyahu's belligerent words to a group of grieving Israeli settlers demonstrated that Israel does not want peace with the Palestinians. However, the bombings, rockets and killings perpetrated by the Palestinians during the intifada were... peace overtures???

You can't take most of stumblers post too seriously because he leans so far towards the Arab side that his view is totally skewed.

HD

 

One question. Does Binyamin Netanyahu represent Israel now?

I think at best this is Netanyahu trying to play politics with some pretty serious issues and at worst we have the real Binyamin Netanyahu. Who is obviously deceitful and dumb. Especially if he didn't know that would come back to haunt him.

But you miss the real significance here, Hardrive. And that is that this tape is leaking out at all. Especially in the US media. I used Al Jazeera because its a better and more detailed source. But this story broke in Israel of all places and got a lot of play in the us. What does that tell you?

Yes I think it quite clearly shows that Binyamin Netanyahu was actively undermining the Oslo Accords and reveals the treachery I believe is consistent with Israel since the beginning. Telling the US and the world one thing and actively planning to do something else.

But you're right Hardrive it was ten years ago. So what do you think we should do about it today.

I say I want peace. You say you want Peace. The Palestinians say they want peace. Israel says it wants peace. And Binyamin Netanyahu even says he wants peace.

But was he lying then or is he lying now? And which way do you think the pressure of that question will push him?

Are you saying I lean more towards the Arab side than you lean towards the Israeli side Hardrive?

 

Yes you do because I don't refuse to accept the historical record, nor do I make wild claims based on unsupported facts, and I don't stretch the truth to prove my points.

HD

 

Hardrive, I'm already in combat mode and actually fear I can't read your response in any other frame of reference.

That's not good. I did read some things that don't fit that mode. With your indulgence (as if you had a choice but I do request it) I'd like to read this a few more times with the fresh light of day before I respond.

I hope you will indulge with me on that. What if we end up agreeing Hardrive? Ever think of that smart ass? If we can anyone on earth including Israelis and Palestinians can, and were both fucked then and will have to talk about something else.

 

Look at the maps from 1948 to now. There is no contiguous land left in which the Palestinians are in control. The Israelis have them sealed up in a dozen Bantustans. That tells you what Israel wants: full control and land. This has nothing to do with peace. When you want peace you give up total control and you stop colonializing.

 

Take your time. We already agree on the main point, which is that both sides would benefit by living in peace. It can be done. We in the US have 50 states with people of different colors, religions, national origins and languages all living together in peace. I can envision a time when Israel and Palestine, working together, will turn their little corner of the world into a garden that produces a cornucopia of good things for all to share.

HD

 

Tell that to the Native Americans, the Mexicans, the peoples of the Slavic regions, the Arab nomads, the endless list of territories fraught with wars and changing borders.

There is no static territorial limits, the US has expanded for centuries, the UK has expanded a contracted several times.

The Palestinian people are being used as pawns by nations who are not involved in any meaningful actions except to get Israel out of their backyard. They have tried terrorism, all out war and shady diplomacy, but have failed to do it.

You are so blinded by the rhetoric that you ignore the history of the region. Land mass is not owned by anyone person or society, it is shared by all who occupy it, they are either governed by a set of laws and an organized government or they are anarchistic, the region had eons of the latter. Now it is governed by a well organized group, they are Israeli.

 

One question. Does Binyamin Netanyahu represent Israel now?

Yes he does, but you are focusing on something he said almost 10 years ago in reaction to the killing of settlers during the Palestinian intifada. Additionally, those were his words and not the official policy of the Israeli government.

Are the words of Binyamin Netanyahu official policy of the Israel Government now?

Because if they are then everything he's said and done in his life is also connected to his words and official policy.

Now, perhaps Netanyahu has changed his mind. Perhaps he really does want peace with the Palestinians. But that remains to be seen, while we've already seen actions that actually mirror the Netanyahu speaking the tape.


I think at best this is Netanyahu trying to play politics with some pretty serious issues and at worst we have the real Binyamin Netanyahu. Who is obviously deceitful and dumb. Especially if he didn't know that would come back to haunt him.

Dumb as in someone who is unaware that the article accompanying the video clearly said that Netanyahu didn't know he was being video typed? And I don't think he was paying politics, I think he was really angry about the killing of the settlers. the only deceit I see here is you trying to play this off as anything other than what it was... a speech made to a group of grieving settlers.

Yes exactly that kind of dumb. Netanyahu is a career politician with international recognition even back then and he would have to be very stupid no to expect in advance that he could be taped by someone and even if he wasn't taped there's dozens of witnesses to what he said. So like all leaders its really stupid to say things that make you appear to be a liar about what official policy is as opposed to his secret feelings and ideas.

And wouldn't you agree its a very dumb thing to be telling the world one thing and grieving settlers something else. There has to be a lie there. And lies and liars are dumb. They always get caught.

But you miss the real significance here, Hardrive. And that is that this tape is leaking out at all. Especially in the US media. I used Al Jazeera because its a better and more detailed source. But this story broke in Israel of all places and got a lot of play in the us. What does that tell you?

It tells me that you missed the point that Israel is a country where information is made available to its citizens, even potentially embarrassing information. Does anything like that come from the Palestinian side?

Yes, I've seen the Palestinians constantly releasing information, propaganda, even blackmailing each other. That was especially true ten years ago to as I recall because there were several waring factions.

But the significance is why now? We've both agreed the tape is ten years old. So why are we just hearing about it now?

Because it puts suspicion on Netanyahu, increases scrutiny, and creates much more pressure.

More significant yet, this originating in Israel shows the party who favors peace with the Palestinians, the party that narrowly lost to Netanyahu, is campaigning against him and his government.

That makes the situation a political pressure cooker with pressure coming both externally and internally.

Politics hardball style.


Do the Palestinians talk freely about the corruption in the PLO and the PA?

Yes I've seen lots of written and spoken criticisms from the very beginning including from the Palestinians that wanted peace to begin with many of which ended up exiled or assassinated by the PLO.

I also remember hearing that Yasser Arafat was corrupt and was keeping the conflict going because it was making him rich. That was actually coming from both directions. The peace faction and the emerging new terrorist factions.

I hate to admit that at the time I did not believe that and thought it was just western propaganda being funneled through Palestinian mouth pieces.

Much to my embarrassment ShakeZula cured me of that silly cherished notion of mine. Arafat's whole fucking family got rich on the deal.

What about all the past statements made by the PLO the PA and Hamas to the effect that they will never recognize Israel's right to exist? Do you point that out in any of your posts as proof that the Palestinians don't want peace?

The PLO no longer exists. The Palestinian Authority has officially recognized Israel's right to exist. And as I reposted repeatedly Hamas has actually moved so far from their original charter it is already no longer relevant. And as I also posted repeatedly Hamas itself has made several peaceful overtures to Israel.

And I do not post proof that the Palestinians don't want peace because I cannot find any. Even Hamas has signaled they are willing to negotiate peace in several possible avenues. And worse, so much worse because people are suffering and a lot of them are women and kids, THE MAJORITY OF PALESTINIANS DO NOT SUPPORT HAMAS AND DO SUPPORT PEACE WITH ISRAEL.


Shouldn't the wishes of the majority count?


[/B]Yes I think it quite clearly shows that Binyamin Netanyahu was actively undermining the Oslo Accords and reveals the treachery I believe is consistent with Israel since the beginning. Telling the US and the world one thing and actively planning to do something else.

You say that Netanyahu's words prove that he was trying to undermine the Oslo Accords. I think that's a stretch. Especially since Netanyahu was only giving a private speech in response to the killing of Israelis during the PLO's intifada. It's amazing how blind you are to your own bias. You see Netanyahus's speech as undermined the Oslo Accords but ignore all the violence of the Palestinian interfata. Don't you think that undermined the Oslo Accords?

I didn't say the words prove Netanyahu undermined the Oslo Accord. Hell, if I'd been sitting in the room I would not have recognized what he was saying as a way to undermine the Oslo Accord. The news reports are the ones saying it proves Netanyahu was undermining the Oslo Accord.

What I said is I believe the article and analysis is true and is entirely consistent with the deceptive practices Israel consistently uses. Just like the official Israeli Government deceptions revealed in Moshe Sharret's diaries.

But you're right Hardrive it was ten years ago. So what do you think we should do about it today.

You want to know what should we do about something Netanyahu said 10 years ago in response to the killing of settlers during the interfata? Nothing!

No, I mean what should we do about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict today?

I say I want peace. You say you want Peace. The Palestinians say they want peace. Israel says it wants peace. And Binyamin Netanyahu even says he wants peace.

But was he lying then or is he lying now? And which way do you think the pressure of that question will push him?

I think most Israelis and most of the Palestinian people want peace, however there are elements on both sides that prefer the status quo. Hamas, for example, would have no reason to exist if there were peace. Some of them still think that they can destroy Israel. There are also some people in Israel that want to expand Israel to it's original biblical borders. Those people want to situation to continue.

There are also fundamentalist Christian groups in the US who are actively advocating the expansion of illegal Israeli settlements and actually raising money for the settlers to expand and arm themselves.

Why? They believe the end of the world and the Second Coming Of Jesus Christ will not happen until Israel returns to its Biblical borders. And they want to hurry up the end of the world.

So yes there are extremists on all sides. But they represent minorities not the majority who want peace.

And I say again. Once a peace agreement is reached and a Palestinian state created it will be up to all sides to control their own extremists and eliminate terrorism and terrorists.

But what if they don't I can almost hear you asking? What if Israel makes peace with the Palestinians and as soon as they do terrorists start attacking Israel from within the new Palestinian state?

Very simple. If the Palestinians cannot stop terrorists from attacking Israel, then Israel will be politically and morally justified in wiping the new Palestinan state off the map once and for all and neither me nor anyone else in my opinion would be able to blame Israel one bit for doing it.

But all sides must give peace a chance first.

The state of Palestine was created at the same time as Israel. The reason we don't have a Palestinian state today is because the Palestinians were not satisfied with the land hey were given so they didn't accept the partition and didn't declare themselves a nation. They wanted it all so they went to war with Israel and ended up with nothing.

Actually the Palestinians were mere pawns caught in the middle of the conflict and used unmercifully on both sides. The Palestinians were told and believed the other Arab countries would not allow Israel to exist.

They were suckers and the Arab states were completely ignorant of the military superiority and determination they would face.

But I point out again. Moshe Sharret shows how the Zionist movement actually refused peace overtures and possible settlements to avoid war.

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Israel proclaim its own independence before the UN charter and partisan was approved?

The Palestinians lost a lot of land during the Arab-Israeli wars and have lost even more land as they continued their struggle. They could have had a Palestinian State back in 1967 after the passage of UN Security Council Resolution 242. Israel accepted the resolution but the PLO rejected it.

On November 22, 1967, in the aftermath of the Six Day War. The United Nations unanimously adopted Security Council Resolution 242. The resolution’s proposed the following principles: (1) Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict; (2) Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and acknowledgment of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force."


On 1 May 1968, Israeli ambassador to the UN expressed Israel's position to the Security Council: "My government has indicated its acceptance of the Security Council resolution for the promotion of agreement on the establishment of a just and lasting peace. I am also authorized to reaffirm that we are willing to seek agreement with each Arab State on all matters included in that resolution."


On October 15, 1968, in a statement to the General Assembly, the PLO, rejected Resolution 242, saying "the implementation of said resolution will lead to the loss of every hope for the establishment of peace and security in Palestine and the Middle East region."


As I've said before, it is the Palestinian leadership that has rejected peace with Israel and caused all the suffering of their people and lost of land.

No I can't agree with that. I've showed you and the history is clear and indisputable; the Government and Nation of Israel resorted to terrorism, war crimes, assassination and persecution to drive the Palestinians out of Israel and take their land inside Israel from them. That is the original source and cause of the Palestinians suffering.

That is what created the Palestinian refugee problem in the first place which in turn created the Palestinian Liberation Organization, which in turn created Palestinian terrorists and terrorism which in turn finally led to the Palestinians being officially recognized as a "people" of all things under the Palestinian Authority.

Had the government of Israel treated the Palestinians fairly and legally in the beginning none of the rest of this involving the Palestinians would have ever happened.

I think it is to their benefit to come to terms with Israel as soon as possible, before they loose even more land. The Palestinians need to stop asking for things that Israel will never concede. They will not give back all the land they captured, they will not allow Palestinian a right to return to what is now Israeli land, and they will not accept Arab control of Jerusalem. From what I've read the Palestinians want the Israelis to accept the 1967 borders even before they will sit down to talk. They know that is a deal breaker and so by asking for that they are refusing to negotiate.

Then obviously it is Israel and not the Palestinians who refuse to negotiate just like you have done here. You yourself say that Israel will not only never concede to the Palestinian demands you also say Israel refuses to comply with the UN resolutions that make their actions illegal according to international law.

Its right there Hardrive. We go through all this discussion and then say the only way peace is possible is if Israel gets to dictate all the terms.

That is refusing to negotiate in good faith.

Incidentally only you and the hardliners like Netanyahu claim Israel will never concede to the Palestinian's demand. Other forces in Israel are perfectly willing to make those concessions and/or pay restitution for Palestinian land taken.

Are you saying I lean more towards the Arab side than you lean towards the Israeli side Hardrive?

Well lets see about that. I admit the Arab nations and Palestinians were fools and cut off their own noses to spite their faces by attacking Israel and refusing to recognize the reality that Israel does in fact exist.

I condemn the Palestinians for resorting to terrorism, for killing innocent people, and for allowing their blind hatred of Israel and Jews to fuel and guide their actions. And despite Palestinian claims otherwise I do not believe resorting to terrorism was their only option. It was the easy option. Hate and anger always is.

I condemn Yasser Arafat and myself for not seeing him for what he really was. A man that would reject the greatest chance for peace they've ever had because he found the Israeli's trying to undermine his power and took it personally.

Also I have not refused to accept the historical record at all. I do not deny the Wars launched against Israel, I do not deny the Palestinians resorting to terrorism, I do not deny the many peace initiatives that have failed including the greatest one of all rejected by Yasser Arafat on personal hatred at the expense of his People.

But I also maintain and have proven it is not as simple as that and there is an abundance of evidence that the Government and Nation of Israel is not an innocent victim.

And finally I try real hard not to contradict myself like you do on this point. We've already established that the diaries of Moshe Sharret are accepted as important historical fact inside Israel. But they are totally unsupported when they appear in a book written in English.

That is obviously illogical. But rather than accept that or even admit the possibility all you can do is call them lies or outrageous unsupported claims.

So obviously, since you cannot and won't admit any wrong doing on the part of the Government and Nation of Israel I'm not the one ideologically blinded, am I, Hardrive?

Let's see you admit the things that Israel has done wrong in this conflict.

Now lets see you do it Hardrive.

 

You've come a long way stumbler, and I'm glad to see you admit as much as you have. I don't speak for the Nation of Israel so I can't make any admissions of wrong doing on their part, however I can give you may opinion. Israel has made mistakes but I'll tell you more about that in my next post.

HD

 

I think resorting to terrorism, murder, assassination, war crimes and persecution is a little more than just a mistake on Israel's part but I will be interested in seeing what you have to say.

 

I thought I would throw this in here for two reasons. One, this guy agrees with me. Second, there's a forum connection to me at least because its Christopher Hitchens, and he turned out to be one guy the atheists around here tried to wipe my nose with that has managed to garner my respect and admiration dispite my best efforts to avoid that.

Anyway, Christopher Hitchens on Israel:

*not_secure_link*www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/07/21/christopher-hitchens-isra_n_654773.html

 

I wonder why I haven't even heard of this until now? I suppose I just could have missed it, but it looks like I would have noticed a celebrity boycott of Israel over the blockade and flotilla.

*not_secure_link*www.newsweek.com/2010/07/24/don-t-boycott-israel.html?from=rss

 

good!

 

I agree it was a good old fashioned fuck up on Israel's part and a public relations nightmare for them. So bad in fact Israel has had to back off their blockade to keep it from happening again.

And now appear to be pressed into a meaningful peaceful settlement with the Palestinians including a two state solution with their capitol in Jerusalem.

 

I've been watching and studying the Israeli/Palestinian conflict since 1972, but have to admit ever since the election of President Obama what I've come to know as a incredibly complex and entrenched international hot spot has now become more like a fascinating international chess game, with the moves coming rapidly.

And here's what I think is another move on the board in the chess game of Peace. Its the Arab Leagues latest requirement from the US that Israel's illegal settlement building will be part of any peace negotiations.

I think it needs to be posted in its entirety because the intricacy of each stipulation and response I think is full of subtle significance.

*not_secure_link*english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2010/07/2010729131010374952.html

 

WHO THE FUCK CARES?????

 

Here is a video EVERYONE should see as they consider the events that are unfolding in the middle east.

*not_secure_link*www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkC6G7LYfQc&feature=digest

This is an explanation of what the Muslims really want, why they want it and what they are willing to do to get their way.

Hamas and the Arab League are Muslim organisations.

HD

 

This is just outrageous Propaganda Hardrive and I am most disappointed on you for even posting it.

And let me show you why. Who are the people who made the video? What are their credentials and area of expertise? What makes these people better experts on Islam than the people who have actually studied and practiced Islam?

You said this is what Muslims really want. Where is your proof of that? Where is the people in the video's proof?

 

WHO THE FUCK CARES?????
__________________
QUOTE=baller16;2778268].

 

The video is just an explanation of what Islam is all about. The makers of this video are sourcing directly from the Qur'an and not giving their opinions. They don't have to, the Qur'an is very clear.

If you find any of what they say to be inaccurate, please point out the specific parts followed by your proof that what they say in not true.

You want to know why I say that the video reveals what the Muslims really want? Because the Qur'an clearly tells all Muslims what they must do, how they must do it and what will happen to them if they don't. It's called Shari'a Law and if shari'a law only applied to Muslims that would not be any of our business but the Qur'an says that the law applies to both believers and unbelievers and the goal of Islam is to put the whole world under shari'a law.

If you think I am wrong then you will have to show me that what the video says is in the Qur'an about Shari'a law is not really in the Qur'an and the producers of this video are lying about the content of the Qur'an. That should be easy if you are right.

Here is that link again. Watch it, take notes, look up what they are saying and try to prove them wrong. I think you will be very surprised.
*not_secure_link*www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkC6G...feature=digest

And the reason I bring all this up is to show you why Israel has such a hard time believing Hamas and the other Arab leaders really want to make peace. I also want to show you how dangerous the spread of Islam really is.

HD